Here we go.
Jumping into something that none of us can really steer.
Last night was the first Bible study I had with JB and CD and we decided to deal with one of the hardest parts of this faith; The fact that in Christianity it says the only way to God is through Jesus. It's something none of us fully understands. We're going to read Hebrews.
I want to stay this interested in Christianity forever. I don't know what's driving me right now, but I want to figure out how to keep it. Reading the Bible is helping in massive amounts. It's amazing how interesting it is to me now...especailly because for so long it was boring. I credit a lot of this to the Orthodox faith. I think I finally get it.
posted by sabbeth @ 11:31 AM
7 comments
7 Comments:
I love the photo!
I'm probably going to make some people upset. Sabbeth, I really don't want you to think I am judging you or ANYTHING like that...but I have some kind of interesting history on that gospel passage. I believe you are referring to John 3:16, the only passage in the gospels that mention "Jesus is the only way". Now, it is said a lot in the epistles (such as Hebrews), but I draw most of my historical knowledge about Jesus on the gospels.
I'm sure we all know that the apostlic gospels are: Matthew, Mark, and Luke. These gospels were written 10 to 30 years after Jesus' crucifixion, most likely by people who knew Jesus directly, although there is some historical discrepancy in that. None of these books proclaim the only way to heaven is through Jesus.
The Gospel of John is also called the Gospel of Q, because the author of that particular gospel is unknown. This Gospel was written about 100 years after the death of Jesus, and catered to a group of Jewish Christians who called themselves the 'Community of Believers'.
Parenthetical: Many Jews believed Jesus was the messiah, but just like today, there were many different groups of Jews who believed different things. Some were extremely old-fashioned. The 'Community of Believers' were looked upon as a more new-agey, fundamentalist group. IE: they were a little wierd. Not to discredit their beliefs. So, think about it. In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus says to his followers, "I'll be back!" And everyone waits. And waits. And all the Jews are still being persecuted, but they're waiting for Jesus. Hmmmm....He's not coming back? What the heck?
So, the Gospel of Q (John), says, "Well...we don't really know WHEN he's coming back, because he certainly isn't helping us get out from under all this persecution, but, we really love what he stands for and who he is...so lets add in some theology". Mind you, I'm not being mean about this. It's common that people add to history when things don't come up right, anyway. So, they believe Jesus will come back SOMEDAY, and he'll seperate the wheat from the chaff, and hopefully, the Community of Believers thought, they were the only ones who got the message right.
Hence: Only those who believe in Jesus get to Heaven.
I am of the belief that salvation is not such an individual thing. There is a great cosmos that we belong to, and I cannot imagine a benevolent God telling Ghandi "Sorry. You're going to the Other Place." I cannot imagine Albert Einstein going there, either. I think we are all an extension of God, no matter our religion. Religion is a historical event, a cultural event. Religion is not God. God is far bigger than words, translations, and prejuidice.
I hope I'm still a friend...
I'm probably going to make some people upset. Sabbeth, I really don't want you to think I am judging you or ANYTHING like that...but I have some kind of interesting history on that gospel passage. I believe you are referring to John 3:16, the only passage in the gospels that mention "Jesus is the only way". Now, it is said a lot in the epistles (such as Hebrews), but I draw most of my historical knowledge about Jesus on the gospels.
I'm sure we all know that the apostlic gospels are: Matthew, Mark, and Luke. These gospels were written 10 to 30 years after Jesus' crucifixion, most likely by people who knew Jesus directly, although there is some historical discrepancy in that. None of these books proclaim the only way to heaven is through Jesus.
The Gospel of John is also called the Gospel of Q, because the author of that particular gospel is unknown. This Gospel was written about 100 years after the death of Jesus, and catered to a group of Jewish Christians who called themselves the 'Community of Believers'.
Parenthetical: Many Jews believed Jesus was the messiah, but just like today, there were many different groups of Jews who believed different things. Some were extremely old-fashioned. The 'Community of Believers' were looked upon as a more new-agey, fundamentalist group. IE: they were a little wierd. Not to discredit their beliefs. So, think about it. In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus says to his followers, "I'll be back!" And everyone waits. And waits. And all the Jews are still being persecuted, but they're waiting for Jesus. Hmmmm....He's not coming back? What the heck?
So, the Gospel of Q (John), says, "Well...we don't really know WHEN he's coming back, because he certainly isn't helping us get out from under all this persecution, but, we really love what he stands for and who he is...so lets add in some theology". Mind you, I'm not being mean about this. It's common that people add to history when things don't come up right, anyway. So, they believe Jesus will come back SOMEDAY, and he'll seperate the wheat from the chaff, and hopefully, the Community of Believers thought, they were the only ones who got the message right.
Hence: Only those who believe in Jesus get to Heaven.
I am of the belief that salvation is not such an individual thing. There is a great cosmos that we belong to, and I cannot imagine a benevolent God telling Ghandi "Sorry. You're going to the Other Place." I cannot imagine Albert Einstein going there, either. I think we are all an extension of God, no matter our religion. Religion is a historical event, a cultural event. Religion is not God. God is far bigger than words, translations, and prejuidice.
I hope I'm still a friend...
Sorry about the multiple posts...I'm not sure what happened there.
And thank you, Faith, for refreshing my Bible literacy...it was John's 14:6 that I was referring to, not 3:16...but you do support my history. Again, only John goes into that direct instruction.
Matthew has that lovely chapter, ending with the Episcopalian's favorite verse (I'm Episcopalian in 'religion'): "Come unto me, all ye that are heavy-laden, and I will refresh you...". That is a beautiful verbalization of Jesus; that he wants to help others, and ease their suffering. But he doesn't say 'You HAVE TO come to me'. He invites without proclaiming death to those who choose not to come. Of course, that particular chapter is also devoted to harping at some 'bad cities'. Remember, editorializing was common...the writers of these gospels had some personal stuff to say...
Luke is by far my favorite apostlic gospel..It is called the Gospel of Women, because Luke really wants women to know that Jesus didn't see them just as livestock but as vital, integral parts to spirituality (praise God). I went to Chapter 13, and can see where Faith would make her point about Jesus being the 'only' way to heaven. In fact, it does not say that blatantly. It refers to living on the narrow path, and not relying on God at the end of an immoral life. I do believe all world religions preach this: moderation and prayer are the way to heaven. Jesus states you can't live in action one way your whole life, and then expect God and everyone else to forgive and love you when you WANT them to. You have to strive for this through actions and good deeds.
Jesus' parables are also what set this gospel apart from others...but what is the theme throughout all of them? The poor, the crippled, the trounced-upon: those are the successors to the kingdom. Luke is as much a social gospel as a spiritual one. Continually, he tells us the poor and crippled will eat at the rich man's table, and the last shall be first. I think this is Jesus' way of saying, "I know you are suffering now, but things will get better for you later". Humility is the key to this gospel. Those who are down-trodden have hope. But Jesus never says, "You aren't going to get into heaven without me". He may refer to not getting into heaven "without GOD", but remember, these gospels were written long before the Council of Nicea, that went into how God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit could be one...this was back when Jesus was Jesus and God was God...
Please feel free to respond...
Faith:
Thank you for asking! And I think this is an essential part of the argument I am posing...you hit one of the many nails on one of the many heads...
I have asked a priest-friend of mine if he thinks I am a Christian, based on my dis-belief that Jesus rose from the dead. We've spoken numerous times about this subject. It turns out that a Jesuit Catholic preist is convinced that I am a Christian...
I asked him, "How can I be a Christian if I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead?" He said, "You mean physically or otherwise?" I said, "Well, we have several accounts of him rising from the dead...the apostles he appeared before with the hole in his side and water washing out, the two believers who meet Jesus on the road and then come to see him as the Messiah after he has broken bread...But the fact of the matter is: his body wasn't in the tomb when the ladies came to bathe and dress him." To expound on this: We know he died and was buried, but on that fateful day Mary M. went to the tomb, the body was gone. An angel said, "Don't be afraid..."etc. Wait a minute...couldn't the body have been stolen? Couldn't the editors of the gospel gotten ahead of themselves?
For me, it is unimportant if he rose or not, in reality. Because that calls into a question of belief of events, and Jesus is a historical and cultural event for me. BUT! That does not mean I do not have faith...that he did rise, in some fashion. For he lives on, doesn't he? In spirit and in story. His actions during life succeeded his death. And his resurrection could be all sorts of things...to me, it symbolizes that life is eternal, that we all may partake in the feast of God...
Essentially, for some, it is not important if Jesus truly rose from the dead or not. He did rise in history and in culture.
This is such a brief way of discussing this miracle. Whether he did rise or not, he is still the miracle. That does not mean I think everyone has to know him personally to get to heaven. I mean to say: Jesus was the miracle man who saw that God's path and his path together were the right path...a single trajectory to loving humans and the divine...to loving thyself and thy neighbor...to recognizing that life and death are merely situational and not permanent states...and that we all, one day, have an option for 'resurrection'. This is what I believe.
Nothing is wiser than admitting that you don't know something. In our studies, we begin by knowing that we will never know the answer, anything else would just be a waste of our time.
Elisabeth:
Besides our common love of literature (you have to have a little of that to be a copywriter, and me being such a grammar nut), we have another wierd similarity.
My Michael? Yeah, he's got his certificate in graphic design...
I think you're like the alternative of me...really strange stuff
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